you called for changes to be made to the nsa's massive phone data gathering program and say it's the evidence that it has made us safer is limited. instead it appears that the utility of the metadata program has been conflated with the success of other collection efforts. how do you determine how much surveillance, then, is too much? >> i think we have to weigh what is the size of the program, what is the magnitude of the collection and what are the results it's getting? and even more than that, even if it met that test, even if the metadata program was very successful, we also have to ask, is it necessary to collect all this data or can the program be restructured? in my view, the program can be restructured in a way that has the telecommunications providers retain their own data. i doesn't require the government to get all that data. when we suspect that a phone number is connected to a plot, then we go to the phone company, much as we would do in a criminal investigation. so i think we can get the same information we need. we can continue to protect the country. we can continue to